Michelle Kleger

[Michelle Kleger] (0:00 - 0:31)

The largest deal I ever put together was a deal in Boston and it was a $700 million deal over the mass Pike. Some people might listening, might know it. It was actually the developer was Samuel Associates and I introduced them to a family office and it was a $700 million deal.

And that when I tell people that story and it was just making an intro, it's crazy, but it happens all the time.

[Nancy Lashine] (0:33 - 3:24)

Hello and thanks for tuning into real estate capital. I'm your host, Nancy Lashine of Park Madison Partners. Capital is a lifeblood of the real estate industry, but the decisions on where and how it's allocated are driven by people and personalities.

Who are they? What motivates them? What can we learn from their experiences?

On this show we introduce you to some of the real estate industry's most influential thought leaders and decision makers. And we talk about what is important to them, how they make critical decisions, who has influenced them, and a lot more. Our guest on this episode is Michelle Kleger, managing director at Kensington Vanguard National Land Services. One of the country's largest independent title insurance agencies. Michelle works in business development where she brings in clients and shepherds their deals through closing. In an industry where you can't compete on price since it's state regulated, Michelle has built a franchise on relationships and trust.

Across nearly a decade at the firm, she's closed thousands of transactions worth billions of dollars. Michelle is one of the best relationship builders I know. She is testament to the fact that being good at building relationships is not a function of age or seniority or training, but the talent of connecting with people and letting them know you care about them and then staying connected.

Michelle studied hospitality at the University of Delaware and went to work for Marriott out of college before her uncle introduced her to Empire Office, a New York office furniture dealer, where she spent two and a half years in sales. A chance encounter with Kensington Vanguard's founder, Jared Fine at a REBNY Dinner in 2016 launched her into title insurance. She's also the co-founder of Girl Gang CRE, a 3,500 member women's commercial real estate network she started in 2017 and is also the host of her own podcast title talk.

Her work with Girl Gang is another proof statement for her networking abilities. We discussed Michelle's unconventional path into the title insurance business, the craft of building relationships across generations, what title insurance actually is and where it may be heading in the world of blockchain and digitized records and the founding and remarkable growth of Girl Gang CRE. 

Michelle, when we first met, I think I was just so impressed. I was like, who the heck is this girl? You are so dynamic and you've done so much in what feels like a short time. And, and so I'm really excited to have you on the show.

I had no idea what your day job was when we first met. So let's talk a little bit about you. You started out in hospitality and you've moved into the title insurance business.

Tell us how you got here.

[Michelle Kleger] (3:24 - 5:41)

I love your question too, because I feel like a lot of people are like, what do you do all day? What do people do all day? So  yeah, so going back in time, I started, I went to school and I thought I was going to be in hospitality, honestly, because I had a SAT tutor tell me, you have a really great personality to be in front of people and be in a service business.

So you should be in the hospitality industry. Literally. I like, I think you're cool.

[Nancy Lashine] (3:46 - 3:52)

And the SAT tutor said you're in a really good position to get a career.

[Michelle Kleger] (3:52 - 5:41)

When you're that age, you grasp like anything to kind of make you feel like you have a path. So I was like, Oh my God, I'm good at this.

And for some reason, I honestly, from that moment, I was like, okay, I'm going to be in hospitality. And so I started applying for schools that had hospitality programs. I ended up going to the University of Delaware.

I learned over and over again in my classes that you will work crazy hours and you will not make any money in this business. This is like being on the hospitality side, like being an event planner or working at a hotel or working as a general manager. And I just remember being like, I love long hours, but I want to make a lot of money.

So I ended up getting a job November of my senior year working for Marriott. And I took it. And then I probably a couple months into that role, I was talking to my uncle who's in the commercial real estate world in New York.

And he was like, I might have an opportunity for you to move to New York and work for a friend of mine that owns an office furniture dealer. I am helping him reposition some of his real estate assets. You would come in and you would meet a lot of my real estate relationships and sell office furniture.

And I had no idea what that meant. Like I was like office furniture?. I'll never forget their main manufacturer is steel case.

I remember looking up steel case being steel. Like what am I selling? Anyway, long story short, came on board and I learned so much about sales and business development and the industry.

And I learned really quickly that it was an amazing opportunity. And I met so many people, but I didn't want to be selling office furniture. It was really difficult.

And I don't have like a designer eye. Like I was meant to be in sales and not have the design element with it.

[Nancy Lashine] (5:42 - 5:42)

Right.

[Michelle Kleger] (5:43 - 6:42)

But everyone starts somewhere and my path is already like, going in a weird direction. So anyway, I'm probably like two and a half years into that role. And I met the owner of my company now, Jarrett Fein at the real estate board of New York dinner that people go to sometimes.

It used to be in January. Now it's in June. When I was at the Newmark after party and he saw me, as he says, captivating, four men, twice my age.

And he was like, what does that girl do? Who is that girl? Met me, actually knew my uncle and essentially was like, I want to hire your niece.

And he's like, I'll link I'll introduce you to her. And I went and met with him and I was like, I have no idea what title insurance is, but I know a lot of people in the real estate industry and I wanted to, I was ready for the next role. And so I took a shot, everything I've done in my, 

This was, so I'll be at Kensington 10 years in June, which we're in June.

So this was, that was, it was a little, it was like, Oh, it was probably like 10 and a half years ago. 

[Nancy Lashine] (6:43 - 6:48)

Yeah. So, a really non-traditional path to the real estate business.

[Michelle Kleger] (6:48 - 6:56)

Very, very.   but the one thing I'll say is every real estate role I've had, I didn't know what I was doing and I just started.

[Nancy Lashine] (6:57 - 7:03)

Yeah. But you're, what was your first job? Has your job at Kensington evolved or have you always been a relationship development person?

[Michelle Kleger] (7:03 - 7:36)

So yeah. So I'll quickly explain what I'm doing there. When I, so when I got there, they said, here is a laptop.

And I'm going to tell you a little bit about what title insurance is, but go meet with people. And I was, I did breakfast, lunch, drinks every single day of the week for months, probably for like honestly years. But I was able to like figure it out.

And I kind of just got into a rhythm. And there's a lot of people that I think that get exhausted from being around people and being in front of people.

[Nancy Lashine] (7:37 - 7:47)

When you were doing breakfast, lunch, drinks, like meeting people, building relationships, how much of the time were you talking about them as people and their life? And how much were you talking about the business?

[Michelle Kleger] (7:47 - 7:57)

Great question. I was talking about the business, probably zero. Okay.

I was developing relationships with people. That's exactly, that's no one's ever really asked me that before, but honestly.

[Nancy Lashine] (7:57 - 8:03)

And you're 20 something. And a lot of these people are at 20 years, you're senior. So how did you deal with that?

[Michelle Kleger] (8:04 - 8:42)

That was really interesting and eyeopening. I learned that I had, I feel like I learned at that point that I had a skill of just, I could connect with anybody and I just found common ground with people that were a lot older than me and a lot more experienced than me. The one thing I always remember being like is why are they taking this meeting?

Now, looking back, I realized that it's because it's all about like who's making the introduction. And a lot of times, like I was being introduced by people that they respected. And so that's one reason.

Then another reason is everyone's been there and people will take meetings because they were in your seat once and they understand. 

[Nancy Lashine] (8:42 - 8:46)

Well, they'll take the first meeting, but then how do you get to the second meeting? 

[Michelle Kleger] (8:46 - 9:11)

It's a great question.

I believe that I, again, was just able to connect with people and I think that you can, it's a skill you can work on and develop and get good at. I think you can, but I do think that there's a part that's hard if you don't love it. Like I loved it.

I loved learning about people. This had nothing to do with real estate. I just wanted to like their families, how they got to where they are.

Like I was like obsessed. 

[Nancy Lashine] (9:11 - 9:13)

Do you remember all of that or do you have to write it down? 

[Michelle Kleger] (9:14 - 9:37)

I write, I write everything down and I have a very crazy sales force with all of it in there.

But I, so memory actually was not the- I was not the best at that. I feel like I remembered some things, but a lot of things, and again, was taught really early from mentors of mine bring a notebook. So, I mean, I'm not like writing down, but when they started telling me about their, what they do for work, that's when I would write stuff down.

[Nancy Lashine] (9:37 - 9:58)

Right. So I'll ask you this from my own experience. You're a young, single, beautiful woman, and you're going out with a lot of married guys who like, like how did you deal with that?

And how did you get them comfortable? How did you feel comfortable? That is not an easy place to be.

[Michelle Kleger] (9:59 - 12:06)

I love this question because I also do feel like when I am trying to mentor the next generation of women, I think that they hesitate on asking, maybe people that are a lot older than them and especially different sex than them to get drinks or get lunch or something because they feel okay, that dynamic. I have to say, I think a few things. I think first is I had a little bit of a safety net.

I do have to mention that because I, the person that was introducing me was someone that I knew and was in the industry. So like when I was really young, I do feel like that helped a little bit with the dynamic because it's like, Oh, you're someone's niece that I have a relationship with. The other thing that I will say that I really learned that I learned this as I got older is, and I feel like you're very good at this.

It's like when you come into a meeting with a very clear agenda as far as you get to know someone, but then it's like, okay, like what do you do? This is how I'm going to help you. It's how you're going to help me.

That's how I really started. I feel like kind of navigating meetings in a way that were, I felt it was comfortable. You did mention at the beginning though, at first I was really just getting to know people and then, I feel like it's really just feeling it out.

But being comfortable, you had to find your own method that works. What I do want to also say, you can't be scared to ask for that meeting or that interaction. And then when you get there, you start to figure it out and figure out what works for you once you're in that seat, right? The piece of advice about if you're well, I'm nervous once I'm in that's like, once I'm in front of that person, ask them questions about themselves. Like that's just ask them questions.

Right. And then it just like, it makes everyone feel like it drops the walls once you start to get to know someone personally. And then this sounds maybe silly.

Have, if you're not good at this, have questions prepared, come in with different like, and it can even be questions about, their personal life, but have them ready to go. So if you do feel awkward-

[Nancy Lashine] (12:07 - 12:07)

There’s no awkward moments. 

[Michelle Kleger] (12:07 - 12:08)

Yeah, exactly.

[Nancy Lashine] (12:09 - 12:24)

Yeah. So you go through this whole process, you build relationships.

Meanwhile, you're trying to figure out what the heck you're selling. And how did you, how did you learn the title insurance business?

[Michelle Kleger] (12:25 - 13:08)

So I think that was from really like, like reps, right? So you have to be in the business to learn it when it comes to this. I feel I can take notes when I'm sitting with the owner of my company and he's telling me, when you purchase refinancing or get a construction loan, that's when you need title insurance.

These are the types of people that can give you business. Right. And that's great. And I would study those notes and that and do that, but the learning and I give some, I love my early on clients cause I feel like I learned in a lot of those deals, the learning of the different things you have to look out for when you're actually like you get a deal and you bring it in or the parties that are really directing title insurance. You learn that as you go.

[Nancy Lashine] (13:08 - 13:23)

So for our audience who doesn't, it's not in the transaction world, explain to us title insurance. I mean, I think many people may have bought a personal home and they got title insurance. How does it work in the commercial world?

[Michelle Kleger] (13:23 - 14:39)

Yes. Love this question because sometimes people don't know. And I do think it's important to know whether you're in the industry or not.

So title insurance, if you're buying refinancing or getting a construction loan on a piece of property anywhere in the country, you need title insurance. How I like to explain the type of insurance is that, when you're getting property casualty insurance, you're putting yourself in a situation where if something bad happens to your home or your building, you are covered. This is in the future, right?

Title insurance is making sure that you're covered for anything that happened to the property in the past with ownership. So yeah, so title insurance ensures that you're covered from anything that happened in the past with ownership, right? So it is something that you need.

You can't decide whether you want to get it. You need it. If you buy refinance or get a construction loan, your lender is going to make you get title insurance.

So it's like, okay, who do I go to? Like, why am I using one company over another title insurance is state regulated pricing for the most part, which means there's no differentiation between companies. So then like, okay, how does one company stand out? Like how do you go get business? 

[Nancy Lashine] (14:37 - 14:38)

It's a commodity business. 

[Michelle Kleger] (14:39 - 15:16)

If I'm the same as First American, as Stewart, as some of the other like abstract companies you might hear of, like how do you get business?

It's all about relationships and it's about how to, how you differentiate yourself through, I call it adding value. So a lot of ways that I do it is by putting deals together and I do that by making introductions, equity to sponsors, JV partners, debt investors. I think of my role as I need to know everybody in the industry.

I need to know what they do and I need to connect dots and then the title insurance business has come to me because of that. So it's hustling. It's really hustling understanding.

[Nancy Lashine] (15:17 - 15:26)

Is there a way to differentiate the actual title in underwriting and service business from one to the next beyond relationships?

[Michelle Kleger] (15:26 - 16:14)

So, and I think it's important also for me to differentiate cause I mentioned this before. There are the main insurers, which are, you might hear of Stewart, First American, Old Republic, Fidelity, Chicago, and then there's many abstract companies around the country. Kensington Vanguard is actually the largest abstract company in the country and we're the largest, we write on the most First American and Stewart paper.

So we're like their largest client. And what that means is, so if you go to a Kensington Vanguard, we are doing everything in house. So we're doing all the underwriting, our attorneys, our staff employees that are working on the deal and making sure that we can close our in house.

We hold escrow, we do settlement, but we're holding it on the paper of the large insurer.

[Nancy Lashine] (16:14 - 16:20)

So you're not actually the insurance provider. You're not the balance sheet. You're just the service provider up to the balance.

[Michelle Kleger] (16:20 - 16:44)

Correct. And then some people say, well, why wouldn't I go to a first American direct? Like why? And there's a lot of great reasons.

First is if you can't get something covered with first American, I can kind of go to the other underwriters and leverage them against each other and get something done. So I've had situations where I've had to move  people have called me and I've had to move their paper over to another insurer because at the last minute someone's not going to cover something.

[Nancy Lashine] (16:45 - 16:50)

So I've heard, and this is just because their insurance policies said no more waterfront or no more this or that, whatever it is.

[Michelle Kleger] (16:50 - 17:34)

It could be like, they're just not flexible about something because they've been burned in the past and another underwriter has not been. I think that also Kensington Vanguard is First American and Stewart's largest agent that they work with. So sometimes if you come to me, I'm going to get an answer faster because I can kind of go quickly to the top.

Whereas if you're at a First American, you're layered. So I, although I've been at Kensington for 10 years and I've never worked in business development for an underwriter, like an actual underwriter, I've heard stories. And one of the reasons I've been there for so long is the fact that I have this setup where I really can insure.

If I say we can't insure it, no one can insure it. 

[Nancy Lashine] (17:36 - 18:10)

Right, right. So we've had the privilege of working, for example, in some of the emerging markets where title insurance doesn't exist. And what you do there is you just have to hire a lawyer. So you go back to all the paperwork 50 years, a hundred years, as far back as you can figure out.

And make sure there've been no claims and then just say, okay, it should be okay. Right? It's not the same, but you get some level of comfort on the, I'm talking about large commercial transactions.

Why don't people do ever do that here? Is it statutory or is it customary? 

[Michelle Kleger] (18:10 - 18:14)

So are you saying, and I just so I'm clear, so are you saying like when you do, like in Europe?

[Nancy Lashine] (18:15 - 18:20)

If you say you have to get title insurance by whose standards do you have to get title insurance?

[Michelle Kleger] (18:22 - 18:24)

Great question. There's, there's a few, there's a few things. 

[Nancy Lashine] (18:24 - 18:28)

Assuming you don't have a mortgage. I can see a lender could require it.

Assuming you're an all equity buyer. 

[Michelle Kleger] (18:28 - 18:39)

The reason you get title insurance, your attorney is never going to advise you not to because it is such a small line item on like such a large, huge transaction. 

[Nancy Lashine] (18:39 - 18:42)

But what if you just said, I don't want to get it?

[Michelle Kleger] (18:43 - 18:45)

Then you don't have to. Okay. What I'll tell you is I never hear that happen.

[Nancy Lashine] (18:45 - 18:49)

You really don't want to say that. You don't want to say that. I just had to hear you say it.

[Michelle Kleger] (18:50 - 19:02)

I also never hear of it happening. Like it's crazy. Like there'll be somebody like, why do I really need to?

And I'm like go ask your lawyer, but they're going to tell you that it's just such a, when it comes to the large transaction it’s all-

[Nancy Lashine] (19:02 - 19:25)

So let's talk about the disintermediation of the title insurance business. Because it's always like since blockchain, it's just struck me that this was a field that was ripe for disintermediation. Once title gets put on a blockchain, once records get digitized, why wouldn't you just be able to go track the record?

[Michelle Kleger] (19:25 - 19:40)

I agree. And people say all the time, I'm going to tell blockchain, what are you going to do? What are you going to do?

I actually think that the title insurance way, the way that the title insurance business works is not efficient. It's not, it's a little crazy and archaic, but-

[Nancy Lashine] (19:40 - 19:40)

It will take a long time.

[Michelle Kleger] (19:25 - 19:58)

Yeah. I just, I, I always say to people, I'm in his, I'm in a relationship business. I don't, I'm selling title.

That's how I make money, but I'm not selling title insurance. I'm selling myself. So if it goes away, I will sell something else.

[Nancy Lashine] (19:58 - 20:47)

Right, right. Okay. So that's a great, that's a good, and thank you for letting me push you on all that because I had to, but I mean, I think what's so interesting is that you are sort of the definition of how the real estate business is a relationship business in so many ways. So talk to us a little bit about how you have a window into the real estate business. What are you learning from your seat about what's going on today in transaction volume and financing?

I mean, it's been a tough, from our perspective, it's been a tough five years, right? COVID, interest rate hikes, volatility, still not fully recognizing how to reprice things in a world of a four and a half treasury 10 year versus a 2%. So how are you seeing it and what's your, what's unique about your window?

[Michelle Kleger] (20:48 - 22:38)

What's really interesting. So we're in a very high volume business, especially like I feel like where, how I've kind of developed my business. I won't go into too much detail, but like deals can get cut up, right?

You get something called co-insurance. And so a big kind of part of my pitch when I first started was you can give, business to the person you're using, now because you can also cut me into a deal. Right.

So because of that, I feel like I've grown my business by getting pieces and cut into the rotation. Andso I've seen a lot of volume instead of some people that maybe have a lot of a couple of huge clients and get every deal from them. Right.

So, because of that, I really do see what's trading, who's doing the deals. I will tell you, I did my best year to date in the past 10 years, besides this past year, which I'll explain, my thoughts on that was 2021.

2021 I almost have an entire like new grouping of relationships that I'm doing business with now because a lot of those people in 2021 are not transacting. And it's so interesting because I feel like it taught me, even seeing that has taught me a lot.

First I can't rely on, when you're in sales, you have to always be meeting and evolving and running around because you just never know. Because if I maybe relied on people I met really early on in my career and then they're maybe taking a break for a minute and I then I'm not doing any deals like that would be a problem. Right?.

So that's been like really interesting to see, a lot of those were multifamily developers, multifamily buyers. I'm doing a lot in the industrial world now, the warehousing, Westworld, the data center world. I'm seeing a lot of transactions in that world, but really what's why my business has been so significant at this moment is because of refinances.

[Nancy Lashine] (22:38 - 22:39)

Yeah.

[Michelle Kleger] (22:39 - 22:56)

Like the volume of acquisition disposition, it's not there. And the refis like, thank God for refis and that you have to get title with refis because that is, and the cool thing about that is a lot of that business is directed by lenders.

So a lot of my clients right now are lenders, right?

[Nancy Lashine] (22:56 - 23:00)

Is the cost of title insurance for refi less than an acquisition?

[Michelle Kleger] (23:00 - 23:01)

Yes.

[Nancy Lashine] (23:01 - 23:03)

Okay. So it's more of a volume game.

[Michelle Kleger] (23:03 - 23:17)

Yeah, but it's not a crazy difference. The real differences are the between States. So like there's some States that are just like really lucrative for title premium and title business.

And then there are other States that are not. So that more than anything, that's really the biggest differentiator.

[Nancy Lashine] (23:18 - 23:27)

Talk to us a little bit about the craft of getting deals closed. Where did institutional deals tend to get stuck and what have you learned about how to facilitate them?

[Michelle Kleger] (23:27 - 24:27)

The biggest issue, and this is kind of funny cause we're a service business. The biggest issue that I see with title insurance companies. And when I hear about companies that are not good at their craft, it's responsiveness and it's how fast you can get things done.

You can- we're relying a lot on different examiners in different counties. And if you don't have a sophisticated company behind you that has relationships, it's really tough. Some people, like to say to me like, Oh, Michelle, like one day, like, well you go out and , do this on your own and not saying I wouldn't, but I will tell you that to be licensed in every state, to have the smart capable underwriting team that has experience and has seen complex transactions, having them love what they do and being responsive when they're working on a hundred deals at once. Like it is a really fast paced pressure business. And you don't think of it that way, but it is big time.

[Nancy Lashine] (24:27 - 24:31)

And how do you apply pressure to the people that you need to get to move faster?

[Michelle Kleger] (24:31 - 24:50)

The one thing that I've learned in again, 10 years of being at the same company is the power of relationships. Just as I have developed relationships outside of my company to bring in the business, I have developed relationships inside my company with my underwriting team and they've developed relationships with our people around the country.

[Nancy Lashine] (24:50 - 24:59)

How important is being in front of somebody FaceTime versus just having a phone or digital or texting relationship?

[Michelle Kleger] (25:00 - 26:16)

Love that question because some people won't love my answer. It is so important to be in front of people. Like I learned during COVID how to sell on the phone.

So I will say that I never knew how to sell on the phone during COVID I would meet or before COVID I would meet someone and I would have to get together with them. It was almost in my brain like you can't get business unless you meet someone in person. Like that was how I thought of it.

And then you couldn't. And I learned how to develop these, these actually amazing relationships and did business with people I'd never met in person. So let me also say that I will then bring it back to, but nothing is like developing a relationship in person.

And to this day  part of my like thought process when it comes to developing relationships and like my sales process, if you say it that way is if I haven't met somebody and we've been talking and I'm maybe I'm making introductions for them, which is kind of part of what I do and maybe I've even invited them to an event and I've met them briefly. If we haven't sat down, it's a mistake. I will do business with people all around the country.

I had one client that I had never met in person and I was doing business with him and I was like, this is crazy. I'm coming to meet you and taking you and your wife out to dinner. This is nuts.

So I, cause to me that, that solidifies a relationship, right? 

[Nancy Lashine] (26:16 - 26:19)

How important is it to have a meal with somebody?.

[Michelle Kleger] (26:19 - 27:15)

In my world? Very important.

I mean that's again, like I think just a big part of it and that's why I like people that don't love that. It makes it challenging for them. Maybe in this role, you have to love being around people and you have to like love spending time with people cause that's what this business, a lot of it is that.

[Nancy Lashine] (26:38 - 26:45)

Can you give us a real life example of a deal that where you put pieces together and how it came together?

[Michelle Kleger] (26:45 - 27:15)

I don't get to talk about it a lot because again, people don't like realize maybe unless  me that this is something that I do. The largest deal I ever put together was a deal in Boston and it was a $700 million deal over the Mass Pike. Some people might listening, might know it.

It was actually the developer was Samuel Associates and I introduced them to a family office and they, it was a $700 million deal and that, when I tell people that story and it was just making an intro, like it's crazy, but it happens all the time.

[Nancy Lashine] (27:16 - 27:22)

They told you what they were looking to build and you just thought, I wonder if this family office would be interested.

[Michelle Kleger] (27:23 - 27:53)

Yeah, it literally was just like, and they were one of the introductions. I made a few, I'm a little bit like I say I'm high level, I'm not taking your deal and brokering. I'm not a broker.

I'm not getting paid a broker fee. I am-. You tell me what you're doing. Maybe a specific deal you're working on. Maybe your platform. And I'm like, Oh, you should meet this person.

And then I do have a really like information loaded organized Salesforce that I created from scratch and reinvent every couple months. Like I'm always editing it and making it better. 

[Nancy Lashine] (27:53 - 27:56)

How do you do your followup?

[Michelle Kleger] (27:56 - 28:18)

So it's all through Salesforce. So it's all the individual followups all through Salesforce and I have, again, I have tasks assigned to me that do different things and I have a whole sales process and I work with a business coach that I've been working with for the past maybe five years that have helped me create a sales process around what I do because I was, there's no structure, there's no processes. 

[Nancy Lashine] (28:19 - 28:21)

What do you mean the sales process around what you do? 

[Michelle Kleger] (28:21 - 28:43)

So one of the things that I was noticing, maybe five years into my career is I couldn't let go of people.

When I say that how I explain it, like, what do you mean? I had trouble like there's certain people that are just not going to give you business and that's okay. But like, you have to know how to let them go.

Right. And so in order, or you'll be bogged down.

[Nancy Lashine] (28:44 - 28:48)

That women who runs a hedge fund about poker, like knowing when to cut your losses.

[Michelle Kleger] (28:48 - 29:15)

Yeah. And it's just, I have to  give up,  you know what I mean? Okay. Love it. So I had to give up. So I feel like she's created these systems for me that allow me to be like, okay, now I need to like put you over here and let this breathe.

And not what I was going to mention before is, how do you follow up? She helped me create these marketing  campaigns, sounds lame, but I have a few things that go out. I have something that goes out monthly.

I have something that goes out quarterly. 

[Nancy Lashine] (29:15 - 29:16)

Oh, they're great. Yeah.

[Michelle Kleger] (29:16 - 30:11)

It's a game changer. I mean, when I started doing this, people came out of the woodwork, Michelle, I forgot about you. I have this deal coming up, Michelle, I saw your events calendar and are you going to be at this event? And I'm going to be, I'm going to be in the city. I couldn't believe I didn't do it earlier. Like social media and marketing.

And if you don't have a blast that goes out to your entire Rolodex, and if you're in a sales role, huge mistake, huge mistake. But that allowed me to be like, okay, then I can let- not like let people go, but let people breathe and like put people, that are not that are like, Michelle, stop bothering me. And then they'll still see that I'm alive.

And that gave me peace of mind. So the followup, I'm very good at followup. I'm like a crazy person.

I believe that like without followup, in anything that you do, I don't care if you're in sales or not in sales. If you don't follow up with people like you’re-

[Nancy Lashine] (30:12 - 30:25)

I mean, followup is everything. And it's really, I mean, because you have so many relationships, it's hard to be systematic. 

I mean, you have to be systematic. And you have to figure out a system that will work for you not for a week or a month, but for long periods of time.

[Michelle Kleger] (30:25 - 30:34)

Yes, yes. And it took years to develop and it took, again, work. I work with a business.

It's a coach, a consultant. I work with her once a week. 

[Nancy Lashine] (30:34 - 30:42)

Oh, wow. How do you find the right coach? I think for a lot of people listening that may have had opportunities to work with coaches, but it's right or it's not. It's a very personal thing.

[Michelle Kleger] (30:42 - 31:08)

Totally agree. And I will tell you that I got my coach from someone that I looked at in the industry, in the real estate industry, not in my world, but in the industry.

And I was like is someone helping you? Like I need to meet that person because I could tell that he was getting things figured out in a very, again, entrepreneurial type of role under a company.

[Nancy Lashine] (31:08 - 31:08)

Yeah.

[Michelle Kleger] (31:08 - 31:37)

I met her and her approach was so good. She was like this, how much we, this is how often we should be meeting. This is what we were going to do.

And I was just like, I need this. It was and she was like, this is like a two way street. Like you have to be in it as much as I'm in it.

And she's incredible. I've introduced her to many people in the industry who have hired her. I don't gatekeep.

I think that, one thing that I've learned is that you can tell people things a million times and people don't take it

[Nancy Lashine] (31:37 - 31:51)

When people are ready to hear something, they'll hear it. And if they're not forget it, they won't hear it. Yes. And also just because, you know, it's not like it's proprietary. Everybody will take what this coach says to them and they'll become them.

It won't become you.

[Michelle Kleger] (31:51 - 31:51)

It's so funny.

[Nancy Lashine] (31:52 - 32:11)

Like believe me, there's nobody who's going to become Michelle Kleger. Michelle, we have to talk about this industry that you started this industry organization that you started that when I heard about it, I was like, what? It's called Girl Gang.

First of all, the best name ever. And you have thousand, 2000 members?.

[Michelle Kleger] (32:11 - 32:12)

We have 3,500. 

[Nancy Lashine] (31:12 - 32:17)

Okay. Tell what is Girl Gang?

How did you get it started? Why? Tell us about that.

[Michelle Kleger] (32:17 - 32:23)

Sure. So really, really proud of Girl Gang. People have said positive and negative things about the name, but it is what it is. We were like not even-

[Nancy Lashine] (31:23 - 32:24)

Oh, I love the name. 

[Michelle Kleger] (32:25 - 33:15)

So about now it was a little over 10 years ago. I met my co-founder Gabby Everett.

We were at ICSC in Las Vegas. We joke that like all best partnerships meet in Vegas. She came from eight years in the fashion industry and I had just started in the title business, but I had done business development at the front, in the furniture world before.

So I had some relationships, but she just started at a mortgage brokerage and she looked around and she had no women relationships and she wanted to change that. So we met and she was like, Michelle, I feel like you're pretty well connected. Let's do a dinner with 20 women in the industry and maybe we can do it every other month or every month.

And so we did our first dinner that we ended up turning into a cocktail event. She jokes that I have an over inviting problem. So we, instead of 12 we ended up having, I think like 35 she was really into branding.

[Nancy Lashine] (33:16 - 33:19)

You can over invite, but with you they show up and that's the big difference.

[Michelle Kleger] (33:19 - 33:53)

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I bring the energy obviously. No. So she was really into the branding named it Girl Gang.

I was very into like the people and the event planning aspect of it. And so we actually, Gabby and I were like the perfect partnership because everything that she was good at, which was like the operations organization, the legal, that was not my thing. I was good at growing the people and bringing people in.

And I was good at jumping up on a piece of furniture and talking at the events and pushing our message of women helping each other.

[Nancy Lashine] (33:53 - 33:54)

So what is Girl Gang? 

[Michelle Kleger] (33:19 - 34:54)

So Girl Gang, now we're 3,500 women members.

We do, the point of Girl Gang is for women to connect personally and professionally. So we do six events a year in New York that are sponsored by the real estate community. One is always a panel where we bring something educational to the women.

And one is always a golf clinic at Five Iron golf, where we teach women how to play golf. Then we added recently our virtual platform, which has an entire virtual series, which is so cool where we do these unfiltered off the record conversations with senior women in the industry. And with the virtual community, we created a membership model.

There's student, individual, virtual and corporate membership options. They're very inexpensive because the point of us doing this is not to make money. We were a free organization.

Like you'd come to all of our events for free for 10 years, but we finally decided we need buy-in if we're going to do more, which we want to do more. We have like a million ideas. So that was like  thought.

[Nancy Lashine] (34:54 - 34:56)

Who was paying for these cocktail parties? 

[Michelle Kleger] (34:56 - 34:57)

The real estate community. 

[Nancy Lashine] (34:57 - 35:01)

So you'd get a different company to sponsor the events.

[Michelle Kleger] (35:01 - 35:05)

Yes. And we have some sponsors that have been doing sponsoring events for us. 

[Nancy Lashine] (35:05 - 35:06)

That's phenomenal. 

[Michelle Kleger] (35:06 - 35:23)

The turning point was maybe like, I want to say we were, so at the beginning of our events, we would just pay for them.

Like we were in business development. We get a couple of bottles of wine and they were small. And then we had a turning point where we asked, a woman asked if she could use our list and sponsor an event.

And then from that day on, people came to us asking to sponsor events. It was crazy.

[Nancy Lashine] (35:24 - 35:29)

Amazing. Has it rolled back at all with the rollback of the DEI?

[Michelle Kleger] (35:30 - 35:51)

Interesting question. For one year we had trouble. We had a little bit more trouble getting sponsorship dollars.

This past year we had a goal of where we needed to be in order to finally be like, okay, now we can start a mentorship program. We can start doing all these things that we've been talking about and we're almost at the goal already. So that means that all these people that maybe weren't coming to the table are back.

[Nancy Lashine] (35:51 - 35:53)

Okay. How much is a corporate sponsorship? 

[Michelle Kleger] (35:53 - 36:07)

Corporate sponsorship is 2,500.

We have different tiers of event sponsorships, which is 5,000 to 20,000. But if you want to just sign up and be an individual member, it's $179 a year, which is a no brainer.

[Nancy Lashine] (36:07 - 36:07)

Right.

[Michelle Kleger] (36:07 - 36:10)

So do you need to be a member to come to a cocktail event now?

[Nancy Lashine] (36:11 - 36:11)

Now you do. Yep.

[Michelle Kleger] (36:11 - 36:22)

So if you want to come to an event, if you want to come to a virtual event, if you want access to the virtual platform, if you want to get our job opportunities, like we promote job opportunities, promoted 600 jobs.

[Nancy Lashine] (36:22 - 36:33)

There are a lot of networking organizations, but this one has just grown really organically. And you work with women at all different levels, which is fabulous.

[Michelle Kleger] (36:34 - 36:49)

Yeah, no, you're so right. It's crazy how it really has just been like word of mouth, but people want this. Women want it. Companies want it for the women at their companies.

Like people with daughters realize the important, get it and they want to support it, which is incredible.

[Nancy Lashine] (36:49 - 37:00)

So when you think about widening the door for women in real estate and education and all the things that this organization can do, what comes top of mind at this point?

[Michelle Kleger] (37:01 - 38:28)

I think there's a few things. I think that the biggest one is that we need to have it in the forefront of our minds. Like I just think about cause I'm the great example is me.

Like I'm a woman in a sales or in a sales role. Like I think that sometimes you sound like if someone has a deal, maybe their first thought of who they're going to call is not a woman. Even if they're a woman, maybe not a woman because there's just so many men in the industry.

Amazing. And the men are great too, but you have to think you had to like have it in the forefront of your mind. So you are doing this in a way where it's not just forgotten and intentional.

That's the word I'm looking for. We have to be intentional about that. Okay. Like I am going to, the next woman is going to be a woman hire and I'm going to focus on it and look for more resumes because they're right. The next person that I hire on this deal is going to be the next attorney we hire, it needs to be a woman. We have no women on the deal team.

Like it's just these little ways because that's how we all grow. And then we continue to grow because then we continue to hire. I'm not saying that if you're a company and there's no senior women and you're a woman at the company, you don't be like, I can have that spot, but it's just a little bit harder.

So like we really do need to be intentional about keeping hiring, promoting, bringing women into the business.

[Nancy Lashine] (38:28 - 38:30)

How often are you the only woman in the room on the deals you're working on?

[Michelle Kleger] (38:33 - 38:49)

I thankfully do a lot of business with women these days, but if you look at the emails, if you have 20 emails on there, maybe 30 emails and the deal is closing maybe four, maybe five, like it's maybe less. Yeah, it's small.

[Nancy Lashine] (38:49 - 38:57)

It's still very small. So you have your own podcast. It's called Title Talk. So let's promote that for a moment here, but tell us what you've learned from doing Title Talk.

[Michelle Kleger] (38:58 - 39:43)

So Title Talks really something that was born out of me wanting to be on social media more because learning that's really important. And for people listening that aren't, you can just hit a million people in one post. Like it's just, it's a no brainer.

And even if you're not trying to boost, I'm not trying to be an influencer in the world. I'm trying to reach to the people in the industry that I know. So that's super important.

So Title Talk was a way for me to, I look at it is comfortably talk to the camera. Like I'm not someone who's going to pick up my phone. I'm not that generation and just start talking. It's uncomfortable. It's just, it's not organic and doesn't feel genuine. 

[Nancy Lashine] (39:43 - 39:44)

Imagine how I feel. 

[Michelle Kleger] (39:44 - 40:26)

You're crushing it. It's amazing. No, but I get it. It comes in, it feels awkward and you have to put yourself out of your comfort zone. And for me, I was like, okay, I'm going to push myself out of my comfort zone, but I want to bring people in my world to the forefront.

And that was what felt natural to me. I want to interview the people in my world that can be helpful to them because they're, everyone's always looking to meet people for XYZ reason and can be helpful and beneficial to the people listening. There's so many people that have come out and been like XYZ reached out to me because they saw me on your title talk or they'll reach out to me.

Can I have an introduction to this person? I saw them, whether they're watching the whole video or not, they're seeing who I'm interviewing and I think that's a big piece of it. So it's been great and it's been fun.

[Nancy Lashine] (40:26 - 40:29)

Yeah. Yeah, it is fun. Well, if you love people, it's fun.

[Michelle Kleger] (40:30 - 40:30)

Exactly.

[Nancy Lashine] (40:31 - 40:56)

I am just so blown away in my world. A decade's not that long a time. And you bring so much energy to every conversation.

It's kind of like you've lived nine lives at this point and have, I can't even imagine how broad your network is. So I'm really, thank you for coming on this show. And I just, I'm so glad that hopefully people will get to know you from listening to this as well. And I can't wait to see what's next. 

[Michelle Kleger] (40:56 - 41:09)

Thank you so much. And thank you for promoting and lifting up women in this industry.

Even just having me on here and being able to talk about what I've done, it's so meaningful and I appreciate you. 

[Nancy Lashine] (41:09 - 41:46)

Just give it time. Thanks, Michelle. Take care.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of Real Estate Capital. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. We put a lot of thought and effort into this show and making sure we bring you insights from real estate leaders that you don't normally find in the mainstream media.

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